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Day: 29 March 2016

Former Manchester IT specialist dies after horrific street attack

Ex-University of Manchester IT manager Paul Tam has died after being stabbed in the street in San Francisco a month ago.

Tributes have been paid to the 44-year-old former web content and digital marketing manager who moved to the USA to find new work after being at the university for a decade.

He was walking with his niece in the Japantown area of San Francisco on February the 18th when he was mugged by a man and woman. While trying to prevent the robbers from taking the bag he carried containing his passport, phone, money, and bank cards, he was stabbed in the head.

He died on Thursday the 24th of March at San Francisco General Hospital.

His niece was unharmed and the authorities are yet to catch those responsible for Tam’s murder.

Police have released the footage of the tragic incident in the hope of being able to identify and find the two criminals.

According to San Francisco police, the male attacked was around 5’10”, black, and in his 30s or 40s, and the female was around 5’4″, black, and in her 20s, with braided hair in a ponytail.

The video, which can be viewed here (video contains distressing images), appears to show the hooded attacker chasing and attacking Tam in the road as cars drive past the seriously injured man.

Police believe they have recovered a scarf belonging to the woman which is currently being tested for DNA traces.

Manchester residents who had lived in the same neighbourhood as Paul Tam described him to ITV News as “a very nice person, very kind and gentle.”

Review: Swim Deep

Swim Deep
Manchester Academy 1
Thursday 10th March 2016
7/10

As a seasoned Swim Deep gig-goer, you’d think I know the drill by now. Five gigs in and it’d all be pretty predictable. Not this time. Swim Deep were my sixth-form band, they were my first proper gig, and they were the first band that genuinely got me through something. Around the time they dropped Where The Heaven Are We, I went to lot of Swim Deep gigs, but not many since.

I felt isolated and distanced by Mothers and its house-y feel; that whole overdone, overexposed genre which permeates Manchester’s student population. In a way, I felt like Swim Deep lost the dreamy, surf pop vibe which made me fall in love with them. I probably listened to the most recent album once and I definitely didn’t give it a chance. This would be the first gig I’d experience material from Mothers live and, honestly, I was apprehensive.

I’m so thankful that I had the opportunity to see them support Wolf Alice and subsequently interview them (which you can also read on this site), as I’ve rediscovered a band I’d almost given up on. I have an appreciation and a heartwarming pride for their ridiculous growth, from the lo-fi sound of my teenage years in the tiny basement of Manchester’s Soup Kitchen (where they could barely fit all the tech on stage), to the genre hybridity of Mothers, juxtaposed with carefully selected tracks from WTHAW played live to a sold out Academy 1 gig; an album they had to make which proves their worth as something more than your stereotypical indie guitar band talking about love and heartbreak.

They opened their support set with ‘King City’, their most well-known and arguably best single, that one song almost guaranteed to have an insane reaction, and of course it did. It felt overwhelmingly nostalgic and the energy of the crowd chanting the line “Fuck your romance, I wanna pretend that Jenny Lee Lindberg is my girlfriend” was infectious. Ah yes, I’d forgotten how much I love Swim Deep. I’d never see them play to such a large crowd and their technical skill and growth as a band compared to when I was seeing them over three years ago is immeasurable. Most notably, their bassist Cavan McCarthy; I’d never seen him play like that before.

Their performance of ‘She Changes the Weather’, the unashamedly straight-up love song from WTHAW, with an extended instrumental build-up felt nothing less than ethereal, capturing the mermaid-y, dreamlike feel of its music video. Austin William’s raw vocals alongside the gorgeous guitar heavy focus, and as he sang “its okay it’s not obvious” it reminded me so much of DIIV’s ‘How Long Have You Known’. It felt different from your run of the mill love ballad in its emotive honesty.

They closed the set with the self-indulgent eight-minute long ‘Fueiho Boogie’, a track they told me was the most fun to produce and I can definitely see why! It felt like a world away from the shoegaze-infused Swim Deep of ‘Honey’ and ‘King City’ fame but it didn’t matter, it was a lot of fun. Here, Kraftwerk acid-house influences are made most obvious, in this psychedelic, otherworldly dream, they did what they came to do and couldn’t have chose a more raucous track to psyche the crowd for Wolf Alice if they tried.

Swim Deep, I salute you and I’m sorry I ever doubted you.

Interview: Swim Deep

As my degree comes to a close, I can’t think of anything better than this. Teenage Meg would have been unashamedly happy to know that some three years later she’d interview the defining band of her sixth form/university transition. This particular interview felt a lot more like a genuine conversation with a humble group of guys which makes you realise, as much as celebrity culture tells you otherwise, they’re just people that happen to make music. Like a lot of other Swim Deep fans who loved the, lets admit it, pop music of WTHAW, at first I didn’t quite understand the radically different and house-fuelled vibe of Mothers, but this interview helped me construct a cohesive picture of the two albums and who they are as artists. A band from Birmingham wanting to do more than write your stereotypical love song, talk about things that matter, make you feel something, redefining and questioning what we think about when we think about popular music.

Photo: Wikimedia Commons

M: I feel like when I listen to the two albums I’m almost listening to two completely different bands? Is Mothers more reflective of who you are as artists and the sound you want to achieve?

Austin: Yeah I guess so, at the time, that was the sound we wanted to achieve, its much more of an evolution than a change. Its definitely reflective of who we were then, we try and make albums to reflect us at human beings and the thoughts and emotions that we felt then.

The first album is very surf-y whereas this feels a lot more trippy, psychedelic and otherworldly; it’s almost house at times, what has influenced this new direction?

A: I wouldn’t listen to house music on my own but I listen to electro on my own, more stuff like Kraftwerk, stuff that house music was influenced by.

Cavan: Our manager showed us a lot of music.

A: Yeah he’s mad into acid house,  he was growing up around the time acid house was huge, he definitely showed us a lot of records which had a massive influence on us.

For me, Where the Heaven are we is very romantic as an album, I’m a massive fan of She Changes the weather and I think if I’m going to find a comparison on Mothers it would be ‘Is there anybody out there’, is there a backstory to this song?

A: They’re both love songs quite blatantly and I like the idea that I don’t really write about that kinda stuff that much only because I find it quite self-indulgent and if I was going to have one love song on the record I wanted to make it as blatant as possible. But yeah they’re both about love.

Yeah, I do Creative Writing at university and it’s so difficult not to be influenced by things that have happened and life experiences you have had. But you feel slightly unoriginal talking about that kind of stuff over and over.

A: Yeah exactly, and a lot of songs are just about that and you get a bit bored of it so I guess the reaction is to write something different, a more pressing matter or like something that people can hear about that they don’t already know or something that will influence people to be better. Yeah not just stuff that’s same old.

Its about moving away from the generic.

A: Exactly, yeah

Awesome. So what track was the most fun to produce?

C: Fueiho Boogie, the last one.

Zach: Yeah Fueiho Boogie

Yeah, I’d agree with that!

Z: Forever Spaceman was really fun to mess around with too

A: Yeah we tried to recreate what it would feel like in space, it feels like you’re flying through space

C: Everyone was sat there trying to make as much noise as possible!

Z: That was really fun to make

Cool… this will be actually be my fifth time seeing you guys.

A: Really?! Oh thanks so much!

Z: Nice one man, thank you.

It was my first proper gig, it was at Soup Kitchen. Do you remember that?

C: Yeah I do, it was in February, I don’t know why I remember but it was in February.

I’ve actually always wanted to ask you guys this… I’ve never heard you do ‘Orange County’, is there any reason why you don’t perform this live or am I just super unlucky?

A: Yeah, we’ve never actually played that live.

Oh, never?!

A: Well we wrote it it at time when we were… I don’t know… it’s just one of those songs, we have a few songs that we never play live.

C: They feel almost too sacred to touch or something. We’ve never even played it as a band.

Z: We’ve never tried to

I thought maybe you just didn’t like it anymore, and that’s why you don’t play it.

A: No, not at all, no. But its just I don’t know…

C: People really like that song, it’s really weird.

You should play it!

A: It’s just that… we’ve changed in ways that sometimes it wouldn’t necessarily suit in a half-an-hour set or a 40-minute set, a song that’s so kind of lo-fi and old.

C: Yeah, it’s the old us.

A: Because that was such a short amount of time, the old us, so when people say “how can you change?” it’s strange for us because the short period of time that was like a year when we wrote all of these songs like, that compared to the amount of time which we’ve actually been a band is quite weird.

I guess you were playing them for ages but you weren’t writing that kind of material anymore.

A: Exactly, yeah. Definitely, man.

Obviously the Libs being one, you’ve supported a lot of really high profile artists, is there a particular band you’ve toured with which have influenced you?

A: I feel like all bands you tour with you get influenced by, like even if you don’t like their music or whatever but by the end of the tour, you end up having some sort of bond and you learn something. They taught us how to be on tour and how to look after each other and stuff, they made a real effort talking to us, we were really shy and they made a real effort coming into our dressing room and saying “Hey, feel free to come into our dressing room,” and that taught us to do the same with our support bands.

C: I felt like we learnt so much from them. They’re proper keen musicians, they’re just great to be around and see.

A: Really inspiring musicians

C: I was definitely inspired by them the whole time, I’d say I definitely learnt something from them.

I’ve always wanted to ask this… I know this was ages ago now but I went to the Libertines Hyde park gig in 2014, when you guys were supporting, what happened? Where were you?!

Z: We still played, but it was next door.

C: We played in a tent with like 20 people. It was pointless because no one got told.

A: It was really fun to play though, because there was no one there, it felt really relaxed.

C: Yeah we had such a long queue, I was really excited to play but then everyone was going mad for Wolf Alice.

Z: Shut up, it wasn’t Wolf Alice man! It was Reverend and the Makers!
*Debate continues*

Meg: I remember hearing a rumour that you were climbing up the poles or something? Is that true?

All: Oh yeah!

C: This wasn’t us though! I don’t know why people were saying that, do you remember at The Libertines, they cut the show half way through because loads of kids were messing and on Twitter they were saying it was us. I don’t know what happened but everyone was saying it was us. Apparently Higgy said it was on Twitter or something. People think it was us, that’s so classic!

What plans do you guys have for the future? You’ve been so experimental and taken a lot of creative risks with Mothers, where do you go from here?

A: I feel like now we’ve done the experimental thing and let that out, we’ve had the shoegazey pop album, it was quite a naïve take on pop music. I feel like they are going to both come together with the third album, in a way that both worlds collide. We’ve got all this knowledge from the second album. I just kind of want to write a really good pop album.

Yeah that would be great, I’m a bit of a sucker for an honest pop album.

A: We’ve always wanted to make pop music. Mothers is pop music, just no-one gets it.

With A Little Help From My Friends: A Tribute To George Martin (1926-2016)

George Martin? Isn’t he the guy who wrote Game Of Thrones? Twitter, as it often does, jumped to the wrong conclusion following the death of the great man, who passed on Tuesday 8th March aged 90.

No, George Martin did not produce fantasy novels, George Martin produced The Beatles.

It’s often the way with producers. They work their magic behind the scenes, their seemingly secret art a mystery to the general public. But George Martin was both a friend and a mentor to John, Paul, George and Ringo; he helped guide and craft the music of the most influential band ever.

There’s some mystery surrounding how he came to be involved with The Beatles, with the official story being that he received a demo via EMI, and decided to give them a chance based on the band’s charisma rather than their music. However, recent evidence from Mark Lewisohn’s definitive biography of the band (‘Tune In: The Beatles’) suggests that it was in fact the strength of a Beatles song that got the label’s attention, and that Martin was forced into the role. Whatever the case, what’s certain is that the fab four were by no means a polished effort when Martin found them. They were rough around the edges, according to the man himself, timid even. Martin’s contribution to The Beatles was of huge importance to their sonic expansion.

It was Martin who encouraged the replacement of drummer Pete Best, Martin who supposedly introduced Lennon to the concept of reversing tapes during the Revolver sessions, Martin who wrote some of the band’s most famous orchestral backings, ‘Strawberry Fields Forever’, ‘Yesterday’ and ‘Eleanor Rigby’ to name just a few. His background in comedy and novelty music also gave him an understanding of sound effects, of which are littered throughout the band’s recordings.

Martin was a gateway for the band. He enabled the four scruffy Liverpudlians in their campaign to create music of greater depth and individuality. In the early days, it was Martin suggesting alternative instrumentation; as time progressed, he became the man who made their outlandish ideas possible, bringing them to life. He rose to any challenge, splicing songs together, speeding them up, and did so, up until 1967 (the year of Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band), with the restriction of a four-track recorder.

George Martin was a man of integrity and respect, and the band came to completely trust his wisdom and expertise. He did what any great producer does, he accommodated the band’s vision, and enriched their songwriting. He may have parted ways with The Beatles on Let It Be, but returned for Abbey Road, and went on to produce LOVE, a Beatles mash-up album, with his son. His death marks the end of a remarkable musical career, and the departure of a true English gentleman.

Notorious B.I.G.’s “Ready to Die” – A Modern Feminist Masterpiece?

There’s been much written about the role of hip-hop as a cultural obstacle to feminism; a globally favoured genre that advocates misogyny verse after verse, rapper after rapper. Amongst the genre’s icons that are held up as examples of this is Biggie Smalls. I recently heard the album ‘Ready to Die’ for the first time, expecting exactly the kind of subject matter that is so often condemned as sexist. What I heard was something quite different and far more original—a partial new-wave feminist piece. This might sound as far-fetched as Kanye doing an album about rectal sensuality, but there are multiple moments throughout ‘Ready to Die’ that stand out for the fact they don’t fall into the typical misogynist discourse in hip-hop.

There are certain moments difficult to justify. Regardless of how pissed off they make him, the women in ‘Friend of Mine’ probably don’t deserve the hate Biggie’s offering. The initially censored line on ‘Gimme the Loot’ about robbing a woman even if she’s pregnant alongside the murder of another woman in a car sound pretty cold after 20 years. Violence towards women is indisputable, yet Biggie exerts just as much brutality on the male victims of his verbal spray—you certainly can’t accuse him of double standards. Rather than the discomfort felt when listening to say Eminem’s ‘Kim’, there’s a sense of indifference for anyone and everyone that gets in his way. Under Biggie’s rules, men and women are just as disposable as each other—equality, yay.

Violence is second to sex in this album and presented much more ambiguously. In ‘One More Chance’, Smalls promises that “Whether it’s stiff tongue or stiff dick/Biggie squeeze it to make shit fit”, proving himself to be a rather accommodating lover. Another line goes “I gotcha wishin’ for an intermission/Fuck the kissin, lickin down to your belly button, I ain’t frontin/they don’t call me B.I.G. for nuttin”, depicting a man who takes pride in his work, doing all that is necessary to leave no customer dissatisfied.

The ‘Fuck Me’ interlude—the predecessor to those video clips your friends send to you that unexpectedly turn into loud porn half way through—is literally the sound of Biggie’s female counterpart thoroughly enjoying herself for 90 seconds. She is clearly getting the most out of it as the 380-pound rapper tries to keep up. Since Donna Summer’s iconic orgasm, African-American women singers have long utilised sexuality for the sake of expressing independence and enjoyment. Rather than resisting the powerful force of feminine pleasure as a source of liberation, Biggie seems to condone it. The whole scene feels in no way derogatory; tongue-in-cheek it might be, but this break in the album suits the new-wave feminist value of sexual autonomy and reveals an unexpected side to Brooklyn’s finest.

‘Me and My Bitch’ is similarly surprising when you listen beneath the surface. The title and the line about “beating her right” doesn’t bode well, yet this is probably the most romantic track on the album despite the distressing outcome. We’ve got parity (“A real bitch is all I want… With a glock just as strong as me/Totin’ guns just as long as me”) as well as poignancy (“I swear to God I hope we fucking die together” … “They killed my best friend…”). We have an original depiction of a woman in a rap song; admired and adored by Biggie, a tragic heroine. The mourning nature of this song ultimately shows that even the Notorious B.I.G. can be moved by female companionship and undermines any orthodox misogyny he might be associated with.

A new-wave feminist perspective on the album could also make note of the masculinity in it. As men are increasingly engaged in equality and gender debates, issues like depression and fatherhood appear in discussion more. This album goes beyond the hyper-masculinity of typical hip-hop records. ‘Suicidal Thoughts’ is intense yet moving, as Biggie discusses the disappointment he’s caused the women in his life and gives in to his feelings. On the record’s anthem, ‘Juicy’, he explains that it is dedicated “to all the people that lived above the/buildings that I was hustlin’ in front of, when they called the police on/me when I was just tryin’ to make some money to feed my daughter/and all the niggaz in the struggle”. The extreme issues faced by black men in the 90s may radically contrast to those of new-wave male feminists—predominantly white—of today, but we can still recognise a degree of sensitivity towards men and their social challenges here. If he were alive today, Smalls would likely appreciate Kendrick’s ‘For Free?’ for its similar sentiments. The single father battling depression represents an honest response to the rapper stereotype Biggie is associated with, posing questions about the day to day problems of young men.

If you asked Biggie if he was a feminist, he’d probably shoot you. But on the evidence of this album, maybe he’s not the misogynist everyone always thought. His approaches to sex, love and masculinity all share similarities with modern new-wave feminist discourses and add another intriguing aspect to an already incredible piece. 19 years since his death, maybe we misunderstood the big man massively. Maybe…

Record label feature: Opal Tapes

Started in the small, unassuming town of Redcar, North Yorkshire, Stephen Bishop’s cassette label Opal Tapes is a kind of mecca for off-kilter electronic music. The ballast of Opal Tapes’ output occupies an uneasy grey area between techno and house: none of the artists here truly share the former’s stern, machine-like pulse, while the tunes are too bleak and introverted to replicate the jubilant bounce of the latter. It all makes for extremely absorbing and intelligently made electronica that flirts tentatively with the dancefloor.

Bishop himself, bred on punk and hardcore, records under the moniker Basic House: a slurry of unsettling beat-heavy melancholy, drizzled with a post-industrial flavour. A great deal from the label isn’t for the faint of heart – the super-charged acid of Worker/Parasite’s ‘Prophet’ isn’t so much disturbing as oppressive and petrifying – and fans of Actress’ gloomy Ghettoville will find much to love here. But that’s selling this terrific label short. Some of the most exciting modern music is to be found here. Highly repetitive electronic music often drifts perilously close to being completely characterless and dull, but it’s the endearingly lo-fi quality to all the stuff here that really delights – the palpable sense that human hands were involved in their creation.

L Neils’ glacial textures has echoes of deep house producer Vincent Floyd (‘Caribbean Drive’), while elsewhere it reimagines Zomby’s moody racket as though disappearing into a despairing k-hole (‘Puzzlebox’). Inbetween the slicing scariness of more abrasive artists (Violet Poison) or the quirky, over-crowded jolt of Lumigraph, lies Personable’s playful ‘Just Cool’, a fantastic slice of gleefully deconstructed synthpop. The curiously titled 51717 (real name Lili Schulder) makes variously creepy, sexy and astonishing avant-garde noise experiments. It’s not as pretentious and joyless as that sounds, purely because 51717’s compositions are so otherworldly and enigmatic it’s hard not to be swept along. Michael Vallera imitates the sound of Oneohtrix Point Never, circa Replica, retreating into a black hole. Ñaka Ñaka’s brooding concoction of Aphex Twin’s first Ambient Works album with punishing bass is enormously affecting and visceral.

With music this cold and sombre-sounding, there’s always the temptation to overstate just how cold and sombre-sounding it is; it is testament to Opal Tapes’ calibre that its unique and distinctive sound often yields diverse surprises. Cloudface’s productions, perhaps the most outwardly upbeat of the label’s roster, are infused with an emphatic sense of warmth that bounces over purling waves of bleepy electronics. It successfully manages to be both alien and deeply human. Unlike other acts on Opal Tapes, Masks’ lo-fi house – covered on the spectacular Food Plus Drug (II) – is actually danceable, channelling the uncontrolled mania of a particularly bacchanalian club night wrapped in cotton wool; something like the overheard noise of a house party bleeding into the bedrooms of the houses next door.

Crucially, given the label’s musical aesthetic, Opal Tapes doesn’t suffer from a dearth of variety. There’s everything from Heurco S.’s profoundly disorientating mutations to 1991’s jaw-dropping album High-Tech High-Life – the unusual, transcendent sound of Tycho and the 80s nostalgia-laden subgenre chillwave engulfed in the worst bad acid trip imaginable. But if you wanted a sense of what Opal Tapes do best, a precise distillation of their ethos, then you could do worse than settle on Patricia, who specialises in hypnotic, ambient styles. ‘Josephine’, from 2013’s Body Issues, is an absolute stunner: embalmed in tape hiss, its muffled, squelching bass, clacking 4/4 thrust and airy synths dovetail together wonderfully. The label has since branched out into vinyl with their offshoot Black Opal, exclusively releasing material on wax, a sign that they are slowly but surely accruing more devotees. Head over to their Bandcamp page and indulge yourself.

Live: Cigarettes After Sex

Tuesday 8th March

Fallow Café

7/10

Sometimes a band can make too much noise. So much, in fact, that the purpose of making a listener feel anything can be lost. Excitement can be drawn from a whisper just as well as a shout, and in the case of New York ambient pop band Cigarettes After Sex, they did just this, giving an irresistibly hypnotic and deeply heartfelt performance at Fallowfield’s Fallow Café.

Cigarettes After Sex’s sonic texture may strike some as formulaic; the resonant guitar playing and wash of gentle synthesizers does not vary a great deal. But the interplay between the instruments adds an unmistakable atmosphere. This lick of dark paint, when applied to a set of already charming songs, sets the band apart from anything else you’re going to hear.

In the hands of any other band, captivating ballads such as ‘Nothing’s Gonna Hurt You Baby’ and ‘Affection’ could’ve been crassly misused and over-performed. For Cigarettes After Sex, the simplicity of their delivery is what makes them so appealing. It took only a quick glance around the room to see their impact. The whole audience were wide-eyed and silent, totally involved in a hazy trance. It felt as if you were intimately connected to the band as they mused on new-found love and barely remembered drunken arguments.

They channelled all of the somber introspection of The xx and Joy Division, but seemed to do so with a sense of underlying levity. The best descriptive sentence I can come up with for them is sad songs sung with a smile. If there were only a single word available to describe Cigarettes After Sex, it would be tranquil.

The evening was incredibly chilled and hugely enjoyable, in part due to the fantastic performances of the band, but mainly due to the quality of their material and ability to craft an alluring mood. Should they grace Manchester with their presence again, I would strongly urge you to go and see them. And invite that person you secretly fancy along too; the music is so romantic it’s bound to make them fancy you right back.

Live: Kaluki at Albert Hall

26th February @ Albert Hall

8/10

Manchester-born imprint Kaluki made its homecoming stop of their 10th anniversary world tour, bringing along an exceptional line up to an equally exceptional venue.

If you’ve ever strolled past the Albert Hall whilst an event is taking place, like the one I attended last Friday, you will probably notice the bewildering sight of sporadically flashing lights canvasing a mural onto the grand Victorian windows of the venue. This novelty is fully realised inside with the gallery and high ceiling which give a feeling of being in a bright an open space, a nice change to the dark and claustrophobic spaces one often finds oneself in when listening to house and techno. All of which might not have been appreciated by those who had trouble getting in due to the close ending times of an earlier event, which resulted in long queues and some people being turned away.

Fortunately for myself this only meant I would miss the early supporting acts, as I did not run into any issues with the venue, bar the expected expensive drinks. Darius Syrossian began the night and, despite having parted ways with Sankeys, the ex-resident played tracks that very much reminded me of it, such as Bas Ibellini’s ‘That’s Right’ and Cuartero’s remix of his own ‘Hans Trippy’, which was certainly no bad thing. Syrossian closed out his energising set with a final few groovers, including the effervescent Walker & Royce remix of 12 Stories’ ‘Bright Lights’.

Of course the most anticipated that night was the so-called “hardest working man in dance music”, Eats Everything, proving to be a master of his craft throughout the course of his heavy-hitting and high energy set. A set which took many guises, whilst initially bringing out tracks the like his cheery latest release ‘Big Discs’ and then teasing in elements of the infamous ‘Dancing (Again!)’ amongst other songs to keep things fresh. Everything continued bringing out unknown treats, or tracks that seemed unknown and unreleased, but would turn out to actually be old school house tracks from the nineties, such as Hole In One’s ‘Life’s Too Short’. The only downside was that he only played for one and a half hour, which didn’t feel long enough me.

Nonetheless, Joris Voorn was still very much welcomed, despite his more sombre and melodic brand of techno. In fact Voorn’s feel complemented the previous set perfectly. The crowd embraced the warmer sounds as the night dwindled into the morning, and hearing him play blissful tracks like his remix of Röyksopp’s ‘I Had a Thing’ was just what we needed. As he basked us with his melancholic hit, ‘Ringo’, I found myself struggling to decide which set I enjoyed more, yet I resided on the fact that they were two different beasts.