The Mancunion

Britain's biggest student newspaper

“Transphobe” Julie Bindel banned from Free Speech debate

Bindel and Milo Yiannapoulos were invited to a debate titled “From liberation to censorship: Does modern feminism have a problem with free speech?”

By , and

New developments have occurred since the publication of this story; find them here.

Controversial feminist activist and Guardian journalist Julie Bindel has been barred from speaking at an event hosted by the University of Manchester Free Speech & Secular Society.

Bindel, who has been criticised in the past for negative comments about the trans community, was invited to speak at an event alongside journalist Milo Yiannopoulos that was intended to take place on the 15th of October, titled ‘From liberation to censorship: Does modern feminism have a problem with free speech?’

The Students’ Union Executive Team rejected the visiting speaker request on the 5th of October, stating that it was “potentially in breach of [the] safe space policy.” Yiannopoulos has, however, been permitted to attend.

“The Students’ Union has decided to deny this request based on Bindel’s views and comments towards trans people, which we believe could incite hatred towards and exclusion of our trans students.”

The announcement to their Facebook page caused a critical backlash from commenters within a matter of hours.

Bindel tweeted that the decision to refuse permission for her and not Yiannapoulos was “pure misogyny.”

 

In a blog post on her official Facebook page, Women’s Officer Jess Lishak said: “The proposed society event requested to invite two highly controversial and offensive speakers; radical feminist and famous transphobe Julie Bindel, and journalist and ‘men’s rights activist’ Milo Yiannopoulos.

“We unanimously decided to not allow Julie Bindel to be invited to speak at an official SU event. We also approved the request for Milo Yiannopoulos on the provisos that, should the event go ahead, there will be extra security put in place for everyone’s safety.

“Julie Bindel is a journalist and activist who’s been on a crusade against the trans community, and trans women in particular, for many years. She abhorrently argues that trans women should be excluded from women-only spaces, whether that be through feminist organising or women’s sexual and domestic violence services.”

She says she “refuse[s] to allow our campus to be poisoned by this woman’s tireless campaign to deny trans people their basic human rights and… to subject our students to a campus that puts Bindel’s wish to spread and incite hatred above the safety and inclusion of our trans members.

“This is not about shutting down conversations or denying free speech; this is about keeping our students safe,” she says. “If this were about silencing people we happen to disagree with or avoiding uncomfortable conversations, we would be denying the application for Milo Yiannopoulos to speak.

“The difference in these two cases is inciting harm to a group of our students. Yiannopoulos is very careful to criticise feminist thoughts, theories and methods of research or statistics rather than calling for active discrimination against women like Bindel does to trans women.”

 

In 2013, Bindel dropped out of an event organised by the Manchester Debating Union on pornography after receiving a number of death threats.

She came under continual fire after writing an article in 2004 expressing doubt about the experiences of trans individuals titled ‘Gender benders, beware‘.

She is included on the NUS’s no platform list, alongside George Galloway, Julian Assange, and any member of the BNP.

After being informed that Bindel would not be allowed to attend their event, the Free Speech and Secular Society released a statement, saying: “We were very sad, though in no way surprised, to be notified today that our Students’ Union is seeking to censor our upcoming of event [sic].

“We were expecting a good turnout from pre-existing and new students alike, and as such are sad and frustrated to delay the event for the time being. [The Students’ Union] have banned Julie Bindel from speaking outright, and deemed Milo Yiannopoulos sufficiently dangerous to warrant a closed event, where admissions will be limited.

“The reasoning… centres around the safe space policy and her falling foul of it. We have always argued that this flimsy bit of legislature is nothing more than an insidious piece of weaponry used by our SU leadership to fashion the university in their own image, and this current act of censorship proves it.

“Speakers far more controversial and ‘offensive’ than Julie have been permitted and even suggested by the SU on previous occasions. Yet they have decided to apply the principles of the safe space policy now and on us. We feel that the manner in which it has been done is at best sloppy on their part, and at worst inconsistent to the point that it suggests an abuse of power.

“Free speech is not just an abstract concept debated upon in academic circles. It is a discernable and essential good, as well as an inalienable right for one and all. We plan on fighting for it tooth and nail on our campus. We are a nonpartisan organisation that does not promote one ideology over another. We simply argue that the freedom to express a controversial or challenging opinion is held equally and by all.”

In a comment on the Manchester Students’ Union Facebook page, Yiannapoulos added; “I’m astonished that I wasn’t outright banned as well. I’ll have to up my game!”

 

According to the official document, the Union’s Safe Space policy is founded on the ideal that the Students’ Union is “a space which is welcoming and safe and includes the prohibition of discriminatory language and actions.”

It “is committed to providing an inclusive and supportive space for all students. This policy is applicable to the whole student community, whether an individual or a member within a group.

“The Students’ Union believe strongly in the right to free speech however acknowledge that this should not be to the detriment of the rights of other individuals and groups. Freedom of speech is important, yet intention to incite hatred is never acceptable.”

Speaker forms are vetted by the university, Union staff and the Executive Committee before a decision is made.

  • MenAreLikeWine

    Extra security for “everyone’s safety”.

    I can’t image Milo presenting a danger to anyone.

    • flow ir in

      the TG crowd, though, those guys can be dangerous. Male violence doesn’t disappear because they are wearing frocks.

      • marti386

        I just LUV how you like to talk about the “TG crowd” as if you aren’t one of us. What an idiot you are.

        Do you REALLY think that licking TERF butt all day is somehow gonna convince your sicko TERF buddies that you’re REALLY one of them? Save your breath. They think your chromosomes label you for life. And you can’t change those. All the fancy SRS in the world is never gonna convince them that you’re one of the “real” women. Or even that you’re one of the “good M2T’s” Because in their eyes there is NO such thing as a “good” trans woman, unless she’s a dead one.

        Face facts. The ONLY thing you’ll ever be to them is a dancing monkey on a stick, to be exploited when it helps back them up, while secretly laughing at you when you’re not around.

        • flow ir in

          Did i ever say I cared what TERFs thought of me? You are the one obsessed by them

          I care about the rights of women to be safe from predatory males, especially when said males ‘identify as women”.

          “I just LUV how you like to talk about the “TG crowd” as if you aren’t one of us. What an idiot you are.

          Do you REALLY think that licking TERF butt all day is somehow gonna convince your sicko TERF buddies that you’re REALLY one of them? Save your breath. They think your chromosomes label you for life. And you can’t change those. All the fancy SRS in the world is never gonna convince them that you’re one of the “real” women. Or even that you’re one of the “good M2T’s” Because in their eyes there is NO such thing as a “good” trans woman, unless she’s a dead one.

          Face facts. The ONLY thing you’ll ever be to them is a dancing monkey on a stick, to be exploited when it helps back them up, while they secretly laugh at you when you’re not around.”

          • marti386

            “Did i ever say I cared what TERFs thought of me?”

            Well, you sure SEEM to. After all, everything you keep linking to is from TERF blogs.

            “I care about the rights of women to be safe from predatory males”

            That’s a terrific stance. So do I. But unlike you, I’m not throwing trans women under the bus in order to do it.

            • flow ir in

              “”Did i ever say I cared what TERFs thought of me?”

              Well, you sure SEEM to. After all, everything you keep linking to is from TERF blogs.””

              See, that there is the issue. You won’t accept other people’s realities, but rather you overwrite their words with your own projections. I say i don’t care about TERFs, you decide that i can’t know my own mind so you correct me.

              Patriarchy….

            • marti386

              It’s NOT so much I “won’t accept other people’s realities” as much as I won’t accept bold-faced LIES. Which TERFs do with startling regularity.

              Ask yourself this: WHY do your buddies over at GenderTrender constantly claim Colleen Francis “waved her erect phallus in the face of two elementary school girls”, when it’s factually proven that there were NO elementary school girls there (the two girls who complained were teens), and it’s been proven that the girls never saw Colleen naked, NOR was she ever spotted sporting an “erect phallus”? Seriously, the police report AND the University confirm this. But that never stops the TERFs.

              This is just ONE case out of dozens and dozens that TERFs like TruthSetsYouFree likes to spew on forums like this one. And like ALL her other examples, it’s bogus.

            • flow ir in

              Great, back on topic. Did you follow those links i posted to the men who identify as women getting charged for penis in vagina rapes? that was in the last two months.

            • marti386

              I don’t see any links. Not that it would matter.

              Even IF you CAN find a tiny few trans women who are charged with rape, I’m sure it never happened anywhere near a restroom or woman’s space. And you don’t get to blame an entire group for something a few do. That’s called “profiling”. And it’s a crock.

              Trans women are human. Sometimes humans do bad things. That doesn’t prove cis woman are unsafe around trans women in the restroom.

            • flow ir in

              I’m not profiling all trans women as rapists. That’s your hyperbolic expansion of my concerns. I’m saying that enough ARE rapists that we need to be careful with our laws and not simply allow men into female spaces on the men’s say so.

              If i post links, the posts get stuck, so here’s search terms:
              Toronto rape woman’s shelter transgender
              Transgender activist charged with rape of minors in support group

              I fully support women born trans’ right to assimilate in the gender binary. I don’t support badly thought out legislation that allows men to claim transgender or female identity to access female safe spaces without outside assessment.

            • There is nothing stopping men from pretending to be cis women and doing the same thing. We don’t all look like Barbie y’know.

              Not all cis women are safe either. The ridiculous notion that none of us commit violence and should be immediately trusted with children or with other vulnerable people is complete bullshit. Even when cis women have sex with children who they have power over – many people refuse to call it “rape”.

              Look up: Teacher student woman criminal case

              You’re going to get WAY more than one or two stories.

              Fear and hatred of trans women often stems from the sexist notion that everyone with a penis is dangerous and strong, and everyone with a vagina is safe and weak.

              When I’m in a changing area or bathroom area – I just want my privacy generally. I could care less what genitals the person in the next stall has. It’s none of my damn business. I will be angry if someone is in there being crude or aggressive – simply existing is not being crude or aggressive.

            • flow ir in

              “Not all cis women are safe either”. right. so because some dogs bite people, we should let the wolves into the park…

              There are enough documented cases of men using the TG laws to access female changing rooms and flaunt their ‘ladyboners’ to make us realise that we need to be careful with our lawmaking. Some wolves may be ok, but let’s assess every single one, just to make sure.

            • Which documented cases where a person claiming to be a trans woman used access to a women’s space to show off their penis? Cause 1) Those stories are often completely made up, 2) Trans women are not “wolves” and 3) How do you plan to “assess”?

              http://www.transadvocate.com/fool-me-once-toronto-star-doubles-down-on-their-anti-trans-hoax_n_11251.htm

            • flow ir in

              > those stories are often completely made up,
              “often”. notice that word. “often”. not ‘always’, but “often”

              >Trans women are not “wolves”
              I was using an analogy. In that analogy men are wolves and women are dogs. The inference was wild and dangerous vs domesticated, which is of course unfair to both wolves and women.

              >How do you plan to “assess”?
              At last, a good question. That’s really what it comes down to. We used to have medical gatekeepers, but it seems that they’ve vanished. Obviously a bunch of men would be inappropriate, so perhaps some educated panel of women? What would you think would be a good way to make those calls?

  • A Resident in Reading

    banning people from a event on free speech and restricting the audience – high rating on the irony meter.
    The SU clearly feel the last thing people want to hear at universities is new ideas that they might disagree with

  • John

    Awful in every single way. No matter how many times they say it, the exec are denying free speech, and in a very specific way, which ensures the views they agree with are heard and ones they disagree with are not. Implementing a fair and good safe space policy is a near impossible task which involves taking near impossible value judgements. It inevitably devolves into a tool used to silence voices it’s implementors don’t agree with. It needs to be abolished, not because the idea is inherently bad, but because the judgements being currently taken are a blatant misuse of the power it entails.

  • frizzled

    Bindel was banned for saying nothing more than the blunt truth. We’ve become allergic to reality.

    • Hannah

      And they call Orwell’s 1984 “fiction”. Hah.

  • makomk

    As far as I know, Bindel isn’t on the NUS no platform list along with the BNP and never was – she certainly wasn’t any of the other times she moaned about being no-platformed, and being on the list would have automatically barred her from speaking at any NUS-affiliated students union. At one point they had a policy where the NUS national leadership wouldn’t share a stage with her, but I think even that’s gone now. Unlike the BNP and the other organisations on the no-platform list, it’s entirely up to individual student unions if they want her to speak there and always has been.

    • Harry Heller

      What’s wrong with the BNP, besides the fact that they speak the truth?

  • Pingback: The wrong kind of union - Butterflies and Wheels()

  • Hancock

    Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

  • sunny

    Good for them. She is now free to spread her hatred and bigotry everywhere else, so i don’t see any reason for complaints about her being refused entry. I would like to think she’d realize that she is the problem, but I doubt if she has the capacity to learn from this.

    • calabasa

      So I suppose you think trans”women” have a right to force themselves on actual women too, don’t you? The trans cabal is absolutely chock full of idiots.

      • marti386

        Provide an actual case of an actual trans woman “forcing themselves” on an actual cis woman.

        Oh, WAIT. You can’t. Because NO cis woman anywhere has ever been “forced” into having sex with a trans woman.

        WHAT is it with certain cis women and the “Oh, NOES! Trans womenz are turning us into sex slaves!!!!!” meme, anyway? Don’t flatter yourselves.

        HONESTLY, you AIN’T all that.

        • flow ir in

          Um, i’ve done that many times, you refuse to follow the links.
          Two rape cases in the last month, both trans with penis on female.

          • marti386

            Are you following the conversion? We’re not talking about rapes. We’re talking about the supposed “phenomena”‘ of “guilt tripping cis women” into dating them.

            Which I always find amusing, since there’s no cases of a cis woman who was actually “guilt tripped” into sex with any trans woman.

            • flow ir in

              “Are you following the conversion? We’re not talking about rapes. We’re talking about the supposed “phenomena”‘ of “guilt tripping cis women” into dating them.

              Which I always find amusing, since there’s no cases of a cis woman who was actually “guilt tripped” into sex with any trans woman.”

              so, we are going to ignore the rapes! great! /s

              as for your last statement, i’m amazed that you have insight into the power dynamics of the sexual relations of every women on the planet. that’s amazing.

              that TG men even attempt to get their d1cks into lesbians is crossing a line.

            • marti386

              “so, we are going to ignore the rapes! great! ”

              Rapes != fictional claims of trans women “guilt tripping “cis women into sex

              Maybe you need to look up the definition of rape.

            • flow ir in


              “so, we are going to ignore the rapes! great! ”
              Rapes != fictional claims of trans women “guilt tripping “cis women into sex
              Maybe you need to look up the definition of rape.”

              Men who identify as women RAPE WOMEN. Not all of them do, but enough do. You can’t keep ignoring it, or de-railing. Well, perhaps you will, but really…

            • marti386

              “Men who identify as women RAPE WOMEN.

              Yes, sometimes. And women who identify as women rape women. In fact, FAR more of them rape women than we do.

              So I think cis women would be better served to worry about the cis woman in the stall next to them instead of worrying about some trans woman.

              Cuz statistically speaking, cis women are a greater threat to you in the restroom.

            • flow ir in

              “Yes, sometimes. And women who identify as women rape women. In fact, FAR more of them rape women than we do.”

              can i see some stats on that? % of female population who rape females vs % of men that rape? or even straight numbers, it would be news for me.

            • marti386

              “can i see some stats on that?”

              Do the math. Cis women make up 51% of the population. In the US alone, we have a population of 318.9 million people. So that’s a little over 159 million cis women.

              The most frequently cited estimate is that 700,000 people in the United
              States, or about 0.2 to 0.3 percent of the population, are transgender. This number also includes F2M. But to keep it simple, let’s just say that all 700,000 are trans women.

              So, 700,000 trans women < 159 million cis women.

              According to a study reported in Sept. 2014 by the International Center for Prison Studies, said there are more than 201,000 women prisoners in the US. This number does not include parolees who have gotten out (like most of the TERF examples of "twanz perverts"), But for simplicity sake, lets say that there's only 201,000 female criminals in the US.

              So in order to beat them, it would require that slightly over 1 in 3 trans women be criminals.

              One out of every three. That's a ridiculous amount to expect, isn't it?

              So, I repeat. Trans women are more likely to sit in a stall next to a cis woman criminal, than a cis woman is to sit next to a trans woman criminal.

            • flow ir in

              I’d prefer you to actually cite a source.

              But hey, If we are going to be loose about it, how about the studies that show that trans women offend at MALE rates, not female.

              But sure. cling to your ‘tiny numbers mean high % of offenders don’t matter” argument. Remember it next time you you hang out with a mass murderer. Their incidence is even lower than trans women in the world, so even though 100% of them kill people, your chances of being killed _by a woman_ are still higher… Did i get the gist of your argument there?

              each time we interact with a trans person, we are at the same risk of male pattern violence as if we had hung out with a male. So, absolute numbers of trans people are irrelevant, unless you are a gaslighter…

            • marti386

              “I’d prefer you to actually cite a source”.

              Well, I don’t really have on, but I don’t think that’s necessary, do you? The point I was making is that something like 600,000 trans women live in a country where 159 million cis women do. Based on those numbers alone, there’s no way trans women commit more crimes than cis women. It’s simply not possible.

              “But hey, If we are going to be loose about it, how about the studies that show that trans women offend at MALE rates, not female”

              Yes, I’m QUITE familiar with that particular study. The study from Sweden. I know it, because it’s the only one that tells transphobes what they want to here. It’s the one that gets blasted across every TERF blog (see, you’re getting your info from GenderTrender again. Tisk, tisk.). The one that claims that trans women commit crimes at the same level as cis men.

              The PROBLEM is, it doesn’t do that. At all. TERFs kinda have problems absorbing information, it seems.

              HERE’S why the study is not applicable for comparing to the US transgender population:

              1.) It’s localized to Sweden only. Meaning that it’s absolutely useless for predicting the amount of “trans crimes” in the US, since the study had zero Americans in it.

              2.) The study was to determine “transsexual person’s health after sex reassignment”. It was never in any way meant to be used to prove that trans women cannot be trusted in the restrooms. The data is being misused.

              3.) The study involved crime of any type. That includes suicide. So part of the numbers used by TERFs to claim that trans women are a “danger” to them actually are suicide cases, that harm no-one other than the suicide victim. It also does not break up the crimes by gender, meaning that of the “crimes” quoted, an unknown portion is committed against cis men, not just cis women. This severely alters the claims that we “can’t be trusted in restrooms”. IT also doesn’t take into account the disproportionate amount of police harassment trans people face compared to cis people. It also doesn’t take into account that trans women face a staggering high level of poverty as a group, and that a lot of those “crimes” may stem from that.

              4.) The study admits it has shortcomings, mainly from the low sampling pool of transgender people in Sweden. Meaning it admits the findings are not perfect.

              5.) The study shows that trans women face a much higher rate of suicide than either cis men or cis women. So when the study make the claim that trans women commit crimes at the same rate as cis men, it admits it INCLUDES those numbers. The study also shows a large increase in crimes committed by trans men, meaning cis women are more in danger of them, despite their being born “bio women”

              6.) The study was solely focused on post-op trans people. Meaning they haven’t studied non-op trans women like me at all. All this supposed “proof” only shows that YOU can’t be trusted in the restrooms. Not me. Your vagina doesn’t change that.

              I’m not posting a link to it, since all my comments with links seem to be dropped into “pending”, but you seem familiar with the study. I’m sure you can check me out if you want.

            • flow ir in

              >”I’d prefer you to actually cite a source”.

              >Well, I don’t really have one, but I don’t think that’s necessary, do you?

              and there we have it.

            • marti386

              “and there we have it.”

              Yes. There you have it.

              Because there’s NO way in heaven that 600,000 trans women are committing as many crimes as 159 million cis women. It’s just not technically feasible.

              And any suggestions otherwise would be insane.

            • flow ir in

              “And any suggestions otherwise would be insane.”

              of course they would, that was not the suggestion. The suggestion was that trans women commit crimes…

            • marti386

              And I’ve already agreed with you. But the defense you seem to be taking is that cis women are in such danger of trans women in the restrooms, because we commit crimes at such an alarming rate.

              in order for that defense to be feasible, we would have to provide a bigger threat to them in the restrooms than the cis women that are already in there

              And as I’ve pointed out, that’s impossible.

              Here’s the point your missing: Are cis women allowed to commit crimes in the restroom, simply because the law says they can go in there? No.

              Does trans-inclusive laws allow trans women to commit crimes in the restroom? No.

              Do trans-inclusive laws allow cis men to lie about being trans in order to enter women’s restrooms to commit crimes? No.

              Could ANY of these groups hypothetically break the law, and commit a crime in the restroom? Hypothetically, sure. The little sign on the restroom door isn’t a force field.

              And YET, despite all the hand wringing, trans-inclusive laws have resulted in a whopping zero cases of a trans woman assaulting a cis woman in a shower or locker room. Even in states that have been trans-inclusive for 20 years.

              There have been zero cases of trans women doing the same in trans-inclusive in school and university facilities across the country as well.

              I’ve been having trouble posting comments with links lately, and I don’t want my reply to get shoved into “pending” for hours, only to disappear. So I’ll include my evidence of that in a follow up comment by itself.

            • flow ir in

              again, you exaggerate. I never said “such danger’ i said ‘potential’ danger, then referred to a number of existing cases. I then used words like “duty of care” “negligence” and “careful lawmaking”. You’ve chosen to take that to be a damning indictment of all things trans.

              It is only recently that men WHO PRESENT AS MEN – without any attempt to fit in as women – have started to demand access to female spaces. Lila Perry as a young narcissist, old men world wide, men with beards, penises, zero hormones. All demanding their ‘rights’ as women, despite not being female in any way.

              That’s the result of BAD lawmaking. Let’s make good laws. You can’t make good laws without discussing the issues, and you can’t discuss the issues when activists such as yourself blow everything up in bizzare melodrama and claims of phobia and hatred everytime you talk about things that are actually happening. Women raped by men claiming to be women and using TG laws to access women’s shelters. (trans) women being strangled and raped by men claiming to be women who RUN SUPPORT GROUPS.

            • marti386

              “It is only recently that men WHO PRESENT AS MEN – without any attempt to
              fit in as women – have started to demand access to female spaces”

              So where is all the proof of this supposed tidal wave of cis men who look and dress as cis men, while claiming to be women? If such a phenomenon is happening, I can’t say I’ve ever heard of it. I’d love to see some actual cases of such, if you don’t mind.

              “you can’t discuss the issues when activists such as yourself blow
              everything up in bizzare melodrama and claims of phobia and hatred
              everytime you talk about things that are actually happening”

              That’s funny. I could say the exact same thing about the “trans critical” crowd.

              “Women raped by men claiming to be women and using TG laws to access women’s shelters.”

              Uh, I think you mean “women raped by a man claiming to be a woman and using TG laws to access women’s shelters”. Because so far, out of the whole wide world, there’s been only one case. In Canada. And just to point it out, he wasn’t “using TG laws”. He was violating them. As I’ve patiently explained to you before, trans-inclusive laws do not allow him in the shelter. He broke the laws. Both the one that said he couldn’t be in there, AND the one that says he can’t rape people. He chose to break them. That’s not my problem, or the problem of trans people.

              It’s obvious that you’re not going to understand the fact that you don’t get to punish trans people for crimes done by cis men, trans-inclusive laws or not. And frankly, I’m growing tired of talking to you. So I think I’m going to block you now. Danah Gaz showed me a nifty little plug-in for my browser that let’s me block people like you permanently.

              I won’t be hearing from you again, so have a nice life.

            • Thee Raquel Vixen ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

              Madman drummers bummers,
              Indians in the summer
              with a teenage diplomat
              In the dumps with the mumps
              as the adolescent pumps
              his way into his hat
              With a boulder on my shoulder,
              feelin’ kinda older,
              I tripped the merry-go-round.

              With this very unpleasin’,
              sneezin’ and wheezin,
              the calliope crashed to the ground.
              Well she was…

              Blinded by the light,
              revved up like a deuce,
              another runner in the night.

              https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6c4606d46d95eec7acc9bec8a5ef693836038bcf76ff055f7b2b7d978a434a46.jpg

            • flow ir in

              >So where is all the proof of this supposed tidal wave of cis men who look and dress as cis men, while claiming to be women? If such a phenomenon is happening, I can’t say I’ve ever heard of it. I’d love to see some actual cases of such, if you don’t mind.

              google: “trans woman denied access to changing room” for a few pagefuls.

              nice sidestep to avoid discussing the trans advocate who raped the trans minor in his care… lets focus on the minutae of a semantic difference in the other rape case to make it ok.

              > And frankly, I’m growing tired of talking to you. So I think I’m going to block you now. Danah Gaz showed me a nifty little plug-in for my browser that let’s me block people like you permanently.

              >I won’t be hearing from you again, so have a nice life.

              good things come to those who wait. must be my lucky day.

            • marti386

              Okay, I was gonna just block you, but since you’ve come back with what you think is some kind of “proof”, I wanna go through this. Because this kind of stuff is par for the course with you “anti-trans’ types.

              “google: “trans woman denied access to changing room” for a few pagefuls.”

              You know what? I did. Guess what I found?

              Nothing. Absolutely nothing. There is nothing here that supports your claims.

              I can’t find one single case of a “man dressed as a man”, in “male clothes”, with a “male haircut” or a “beard” trying to access the restrooms or locker rooms while “claiming to be a woman”.

              NOT ONE.

              HOW did you think this proved your point? In every case, the article either doesn’t show the trans woman, or the trans woman is CLEARLY a trans woman, wearing women’s clothes, holding women’s purses, wearing lipstick, long hair, etc. So CONGRATULATIONS. You just proved your own claims are bogus.

              While it’s true that some of them were obviously trans women, that’s a million miles from your sensationalist claims of “men” presenting as men, while claiming to be trans. So unless you’re trying to claim that trans women who don’t pass are “men, presenting as men”, you’ve got no ground to stand on.

              It IS a good example of the amazing lies told by the anti-trans crowd. Seriously, you guys will jump through flaming hoops to try to make us look bad. Too bad for you it’s all easily dis-proven.

            • marti386
    • Reason0verhate

      You’re an assho[e.

  • Hope

    Hard not to conclude that somehow men are being given more rights here than women. Isn’t this Milo the very same person who wrote an article saying transgendersim is a psychiatric disorder? http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psychiatric-disorder-its-sufferers-need-therapy-not-surgery/ So what is the logic here. Women make comments that are just silly hysterical reactionaryism, but men make deep meaningful statements that should be respected. Surely the SU should be protecting any of its trans members from the threat of being sectioned?

    • Harry Heller

      Of course, the self-mutilation of “transgenderism” is a psychiatric disorder. What else could it be?

      • You could always read up on the subject by finding recent peer reviewed journals articles or consulting the consensus of academic and medical experts…or not. You could also just putt stuff out of your ass. These are choices you get to make.

      • marti386

        “Of course, the self-mutilation of “transgenderism” is a psychiatric disorder”

        Of course it is.

        And the “self-mutilation” of tattooing is a “psychiatric disorder”.

        And the “self-mutilation” of piercing is a “psychiatric disorder”.

        And the “self-mutilation” of getting your nose done is a “psychiatric disorder”.

        And the “self-mutilation” of getting a face-lift is a “psychiatric disorder”.

        And the “self-mutilation” of getting Botox is a “psychiatric disorder”.

        So WHEN you cis people have doing all those things, THEN you can lecture us about trans people, okay Junior?

        • flow ir in

          says the person who doesn’t self-mutilate.

          • marti386

            Hon, I’ve got C-cups. And a behind that won’t fit into any “male” pants.

            I guess it all depends on your personal definition of “self-mutilate”, doesn’t it?

            • flow ir in

              “Hon, I’ve got C-cups. And a behind that won’t fit into any “male” pants.great, ”

              you’ve successfully mimicked the secondary sexual characteristics of a female. tits and arse. What all the boys like. A bit of adipose tissue.
              If that is not a male enough picture of a woman!!!?

              But, you’ve still got the wiener… So no, you’ve not let go of it yet, not mutilated.

            • marti386

              “you’ve successfully mimicked the secondary sexual characteristics of a female. tits and arse. What all the boys like”

              Umm, NO. Tits and arse as in “hormones give you girlie bits”. It has nothing to do with what boys like.

              Here’s the thing: Being REALLY considered a woman in everyday society has nothing to do with what’s between my legs (since very, very few people will ever get to see it). It has to do with passability.

              I’m really lucky. I pass extremely well. I’ve been full time for going for about 15 years, and I’ve never gotten so much as a second glance in any women’s space. I’ve worked really hard at my voice, and nobody ever confuses me for a man on the phone. And judging by the opinions of my cis female friends and co-workers (as well as cis male strangers on the street), I’m quite attractive too. I’m accepted as a woman anywhere I go, every day.

              So, you may have been lucky enough to have the spare scratch to get some new plumbing in downstairs, but judging by your avatar, I’d say you’d pass better if you’d spent it on facial feminization surgery. Cuz it’s pretty apparent.

              Personally, I think you’re all jelly because, despite my girldick, I pass better than you.

            • flow ir in

              “So, you may have been lucky enough to have the spare scratch to get some new plumbing in downstairs, but judging by your avatar, I’d say you’d pass better if you’d spent it on facial feminization surgery. Cuz it’s pretty apparent.

              Personally, I think you’re all jelly because, despite my girldick, I pass better than you.”

              Said the competitive male.

            • marti386

              I dunno. YOU seem to be the one who’s SO desperate to convince the TERFs here that you’re a “real” woman.

              Me? I could care less what anyone else thinks. I define womanhood MY way.

            • flow ir in

              “I dunno. YOU seem to be the one who’s SO desperate to convince the TERFs here that you’re a “real” woman.
              Me? I could care less what anyone else thinks. I define womanhood MY way.”

              can i re-iterate, it is you that is obsessed with TERFS, i’ve already said i don’t care what they think of me? Am i not allowed that opinion, do you know better?

            • marti386

              “can i re-iterate, it is you that is obsessed with TERFS, I’ve already said i don’t care what they think of me?”

              That may be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the links you’ve used for “proof” has been TERF blogs GenderTrender (multiple times), and TransgenderReality as well as LifeSiteNews (multiple times). None are particularly truthful.

            • flow ir in

              You ARE obsessed by terfs. How sweet.

            • marti386

              You DO know that the GenderTrender blog (you know, the one you keep linking to for “evidence”) is one of the biggest TERF blogs out there, right?

            • flow ir in

              You do know that its mentally ill TG men who identify as women who use the term “TERF”, don’t you? Women use the terms “gender critical”, “radical feminism”, “social philosophy” etc.

              Essentially you and your ilk label anything that doesn’t roll over to your bizzare demands to allow het males into girl’s locker rooms as “terf”, no matter how reasoned or sensible the discussions may be. Its like being called an unbeliever by mad cultists.

            • marti386

              “ou do know that its mentally ill TG men who identify as women who use the term “TERF”, don’t you”

              “TERF” stands for “Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist”. And it was created by a cis woman radical feminist named TigTog, because the mainstream radical feminists (who ALWAYS have been very trans supportive) were tired of being confused with a very tiny, very loud minority of cis women who incorrectly thought they could hijack radical feminism with their transphobia.

              You know, if you’re gonna insist on continuing to talk to me, it would do you some good to actually learn a few things before you open your mouth.

            • flow ir in

              really? that’s not what rational wiki says:

              “The term “TERF” is not used by those in the group, who consider it a damnable slur, and think of themselves as perfectly reasonable radical feminists”

              TigTog may have invented the term, but she did so as a way of labelling others, not herself. Its use was quickly taken up by TG men who identify as women

            • marti386

              Explain hot the term TERF can be a slur, when it literally means only “Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist”?

              While it IS true that most people do not tend to think of TERFs fondly, it is in fact their repulsive behavior, not the moniker, that has given their movement a bad name.

              If TERFs want everyone to stop thinking so badly of them, they need to stop acting so badly.

              Simple.

            • flow ir in

              Show me a self identified TERF. Even better, replace the word with ‘coon’ and see how that fits.

            • marti386

              You’ll forgive me if I don’t really give a shit how TERFs self identify.

              And honestly, trying to compare it with “coon” is just plain sad.

            • flow ir in

              http://sarahditum.com/2014/07/28/how-terf-works/

              “You’ll forgive me if I don’t really give a shit how TERFs self identify.

              And honestly, trying to compare it with “coon” is just plain sad.”

              When a label is given to other people, that’s a slur. “TERF” is a slur, used to distance, cause friction and incite violence against (mostly) women. It is clear you don’t give a shit about the people you like to insult and belittle. I feel that you truly do have much conflict in your self image. It must really suck to have tried so hard to be a woman, but to have failed at the last hurdle, so now you need to put them down all the time.

            • marti386

              I’m sorry. Maybe I’ll feel for poor Sarah’s plight when her ilk stop calling me a “pervert”.

              “Boo hoo! I’ve been called a ‘Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist’! What a horrible insult! How will I ever survive? Oh, the humanity!”

              Yeah, no. Not feeling it.

              Wanna know what TERFs have been calling me? Here’s a few: “Pervert”, “Monster”, “Sicko”, “Pedophile”, “Rapist”. I’ve been told I transitioned for “nefarious purposes” in order to seek “child victims”. I’ve been called “Filth”. I’ve been called a “Degenerate”. I’ve been called a “Predator”. For the crime of being trans. By the very women you seem so desperate to defend.

              And you’re ACTUALLY trying to make the argument that I should feel SORRY for TERFs because another cis woman labeled them “TERFs”? I’m supposed to feel sorry if it causes them “friction”?

              Grow the fuck up.

            • Bridget Heinz

              “So, you may have been lucky enough to have the spare scratch to get some new plumbing put in downstairs”

              Okay, that’s about enough. In my case, LUCK had nothing to do with it. It’s called saving every penny I ever earned by working for years at achieving that goal. I did in considerably less time than all the years you’ve been living as a woman so it’s not some impossible dream. It’s also not something that I was ever afraid of, even if it meant not surviving it, which is exceedingly rare by all statistical data.

              It’s all I ever wanted. EVER. So just because you don’t value having a vagina no matter what it takes please don’t trivialise it for those who do. Your priorities are your priorities but luck is not what it takes to achieve SRS.

            • marti386

              In my case, LUCK had nothing to do with it. It’s called saving every
              penny I ever earned by working for years at achieving that goal.

              And that’s fine. I have a LOT of respect for trans women who have SRS. I just don’t appreciate it when they use it to feel superior, or insinuate she’s more of a “real” woman than me. Which she’s been doing. So if all you got out of my previous comments is “you’re picking on post-ops because you’re not thrifty enough”, maybe you should re-read our conversation.

              Me? I’m not willing to spend that kind of money, when I may not even wake up on the table at the end. It’s too big a risk for me. I pass well. I get along just fine. MAYBE someday down the line, but I don’t see transition as a long road to be traveled, in order to reach a destination. Wherever I go, I’m already there. Surgery doesn’t make me a woman.

              I do.

            • Bridget Heinz

              My main point was that it’s a matter of will not simply a matter of finance or luck because the cost has never been insurmountable.

              Yes, you keep reiterating that it’s a possibility you won’t wake up if you get SRS. Is your health poor? It’s not a life threatening surgery to say the least.

              Do hormones makes you a woman then? How do you define it for yourself?

              I suppose you’re satisfied with the anatomy you have. It was never for me.

            • marti386

              “My main point was that it’s a matter of will not simply a matter of
              finance or luck because the cost has never been insurmountable. It’s a
              matter of desire, plain and simple.”

              I know. When I first transitioned, I would have done anything to be able to afford SRS. But I couldn’t. I was financially taking care of a sick mother, and I wasn’t making much money to begin with. But over the years, I became comfortable being me, and I realized that society wasn’t demanding I get it.

              “You keep reiterating that it’s a possibility you won’t wake up if you
              get SRS. Is your health poor? It’s not a life threatening surgery to say
              the least.”

              All surgeries have a risk. Even the simple ones. People die due to complications all the time. Even on things like plastic surgery. I’m not really interested in risking it. Plus, there are cases of botched SRS. I’m just not goint to take the chance.

              “Do hormones makes you a woman then?”

              No. I do. I’ve always known I was one. And while the hormones have helped a lot, they haven’t changed my sense of self.

              “I suppose you’re satisfied with the anatomy you have. It was never right for me.”

              I never said it was. I’m not judging you.

              “By the way, the jury is still out on whether you “pass better” than
              flow. Your avatar isn’t exactly sufficient evidence of that but the
              whole competitive game of who looks better is very divisive so I try to
              avoid it.”

              I don’t need to prove it to you. My everyday life shows me . She’s the one turning this into a competition.

              The thing I explained to you earlier, the thing you’ve neglected to reply on, is that Flow keeps pulling this “I’m a real woman and you’re not because I have a hoohah and you don’t” thing. I’m getting tired of her lumping herself into the “real woman” category, while making the claim that she’s “unsafe” around women like me. It wasn’t an attack on SRS.

      • flow ir in

        most male (MTT) TG people don’t self mutilate. They love their penises too much.
        Sadly, ‘top’ surgery for FTT women is gaining popularity.

    • Kitzzeh

      So the women asking for a public debate haven’t been given more rights since Milo ( man) was banned from there. Weren’t women being given more rights at the Amber SlutWalk when LAPD threw kicked two people out ( cause they can’t film) yet all the others were filming? Aren’t women being given more rights when the sentence for rape is 20 weekends and not 4-5 years like a man has ? Wait.. or when they are being given safe spaces when men get more statistically, phisically assaulted? Please, enlighten us.

  • RedQueen

    This is just excruciatingly embarrassing. I actually feel pity for everyone who is involved in this decision.

  • Nic

    “Bindel’s wish to spread and incite hatred” wow, just wow. She wrote an article in 2004 complaining about a male-to-female transexual being compensated after not being allowed to counsel female rape victims and extrapolated the arguments to discus gender as a construct and question if surgery changes gender. Beyond that, sometimes she’s a bit blunt/aggressive with words. But she’s spent her life campaigning against domestic violence and sexual abuse – and for the rights of women. Milo meanwhile has argued transgenderism is a psychiatric disorder but is seen as no threat, in spite of the countless women who have received death-threats and online abuse during Gamergate, of which he played a notable part.
    It’s one rule for him, another for her – and I still struggle for the life of me to see how her having a point of view about gender & transgenderism either threatens the ‘safe space’ of a university which had over 30 claims of rape in just three months last year, or is ‘spreading and inciting hatred’. Safe spaces & controls on hate speech are too important to be exploited and misused in this way.

    • Madfoot712

      >online abuse

      Read…: “people are criticizing me online!”

      • Nic
        • Madfoot712

          I have never seen her respond to critics.

        • marti386

          Just to point it out, those comments are posted by GamerGaters (a predominately cis male group, with a few cis women handmaidens).

          The PROBLEM I have with you is, by posting a GamerGater thread, in an article about Julie Bindel being banned on account of her transphobia, is that it insinuates that trans people (specifically trans women) are somehow a part of the GamerGater group.

          And THAT, I’m afraid, is a big fat CROCK.

          GamerGaters are horribly anti-woman. And they are not trans people. In fact, there hasn’t been proof of a single trans person being affiliated with them at all. I know a TON of trans women, ALL of whom have made themselves targets for GamerGater abuse, by sticking up for women.

          Which is actually far MORE than I’ve ever seen done by TERFs like Julie Bindel.

          I mean, WHERE were the TERFs when GamerGaters were harassing Anita Sarkeesian? Seriously, they’ve been attacking her for THREE years now.

          Where were TERFs when GamerGaters were harassing game developer Zoe Quinn?

          Where were TERFs when GamerGaters were harassing game journalists like Jenn Frank? Or when they harassed Mattie Brice into quitting? Or Leigh Alexander? This has been going on for a LONG time now. YEARS. Trans women have been in the trenches fighting this since the beginning. Where were these so called “feminists”, the TERFs?

          Oh, that’s right. They didn’t even know this was going on. They were all too busy posting snarky comments about trans women, and trying to get us kicked out of Take Back the Night.

          I have never seen a SINGLE article on any TERF blog regarding GamerGate. At all.

          So, while I’m super upset about GamerGater douchebags, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to conflate them with the legitimate reasons for banning Bindel. Mainly, her past history of transphobia.

          • Nic

            the reference to GamerGate is because Julie was supposed to be debating @Nero – who was a key driver of GamerGate (and also received death threats)… against the idea that Julie threatens safe spaces more than he does. http://www.salon.com/2014/10/28/gamergates_fickle_hero_the_dark_opportunism_of_breitbarts_milo_yiannopoulos/

            • marti386

              Well, although I have no problem with a feminist debating a GamerGater in a public forum, I’d prefer it was by a feminist who has ACTUALLY spoken out against it in the past.

              You know, like Anita Sarkeesian?

            • Madfoot712

              Feminists don’t debate.

          • Madfoot712

            Why does it matter if people are “cis, white, or male”? How horribly racist and sexist.

        • flow ir in

          they won’t accept evidence. For evidence proves that they are mad.

    • Harry Heller

      Shut up, you bootlicker. There should never be any control on “hate speech”. Who gets to define hate speech? I am deeply offended when someone says, for example, that European colonialism was evil. It plainly (empirically) was not; indeed, it was the best thing that ever happened to many formerly primitive peoples. Still, I believe that such misguided “social justice warriors” ought to be able to speak freely, however much I dislike their mendacious opinions.

      • Nic

        oh no.. what the incredibly poor people of the world are hurting your tender sensibilities by saying that the raping and pillaging of their land, resources and people, who were shipped across the world as slaves, devastating communities and leaving their countries often in a state of chaos and in-fighting for years and often centuries afterwards, while we became staggeringly wealthy by comparison, that this might not have been a good thing… this offends you? have a cup of tea love, I’m sure you’ll recover.

        So starting from this point of remarkable insight and cultural sensitivity, you demand the right to be able to say online any forms of racism, sexism, homophobia, incitement to violence, death or rape – directed at anyone you want – despite, (I’m guessing) never having really been threatened by such things in life? If we were talking about free speech in public life, for example, down the pub, then fine.. because people know who you are, and can respond appropriately, and I assume you would say no more than would get you punched. But online, the freedom to, say, threaten a feminist with brutal murder, as many people seem to do, has a number of problems – the threatener is anonymous, a full blown coward hiding behind a screen name, and there is typically no consequence. Say the same thing in a pub and you’ll probably be kicked out, barred, or maybe the police are called; say it online, which can have just as much, if not more, impact on those receiving it, and the worst that might happen is you get muted.

        If you had a daughter, and you saw her receiving such attacks and threats online, then perhaps you would have a different view on ‘free speech’ vs ‘hate speech’.

        • Madfoot712

          “Kill yourself” is not a death threat. It’s rude, and mean, but not an actionable threat. We already have laws against real death threats. Someone calling you an idiot is not comparable.

    • marti386

      Well, they certainly didn’t ask me. As a trans woman, I don’t have a problem with Julie getting the boot, but I’d like to see Milo gone too.

  • The Manchester Student Union has put me on the same “side” as Bindel. She even retweeted something of mine. For this – I will never forgive you. I can only assume that you are more familiar with Bindel’s harmful writing than Yiannopoulos’ efforts to mold hate speech and media-fueled intimidation into some sort of inexplicable deadly performance art.

    • Craig smith

      harmful writing? Orwell much?

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  • AQuaintPeacock

    This is amazing. You are barring and banning people from debates on free speech because you disagree with their opinions. lol

    “is committed to providing an inclusive exclusive and supportive space for all students individuals we agree with

    fixed that for you

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  • calabasa

    This is absolutely ridiculous…the trans movement has become not only hateful toward anyone in disagreement (extension of the MRM?), but has somehow managed to bring everyone round to its side and way of thinking, although trans people make up an extremely tiny portion of the population (I think women’s half of the population trumps the tiny percentage of men who want to be women, thanks; their wishes and safety should count for something). I still don’t understand how people refuse to believe the obvious, that if you tell men that if they claim to be women they can go into women’s locker rooms A LOT OF PERVERTS WILL DO THIS. They just will! If “true” MtF trans people want to share women’s locker rooms etc., they need to deal with all these impostors who are piggybacking off their movement to attack or ogle (or film) women. Also, the fact that something like five times more men than women claim they are trans (and are “lesbians,” and want to force lesbians to accept them as partners) has a lot more to do with sexual fetishism than gender identity. It used to be really hard to get permission for surgeries; now, because of the trans lobby, not only can anyone with a passing whim (or the wrong reasons) do it, and insurance pays for it, but it’s being pushed on gender-questioning teens and children. I think it’s taken off because first off, MtF trans people’s campaign against radfems and the way they’ve hijacked the feminist and even queer rights’ movement simply tickles all the other misogynists to no end, and secondly because changing gender-bending children into the other gender sticks them back into neat little boxes that are not threatening to society the way an androgynous or constantly metamorphosing person would be.

    I seriously don’t get how people don’t understand that transgenderism is just more gender role policing, reactionary and as regressive as pink for girls blue for boys.

    I also don’t get how people don’t see the misogyny and entitlement behind a tiny percentage of the male population claiming they have rights over the female majority, that they can go into women’s bathrooms even if women feel unsafe (rather than ask for a third option, a gender neutral or strictly trans bathroom, ALREADY A HUGE CONCESSION; do they even know how long it took for women–over one half of the population–to get their own public bathrooms?! These people are so fucking entitled it’s a joke). They want to say “pregnant person” instead of “pregnant woman” and erase the entire female experience because of a few transgenders. (Seriously; they complain about the term “female genital mutilation” because the “female” doesn’t include females with penises, or who grow up and decide they want penises; talk about missing the point). Now female is being erased as a category and by extension women’s lived experiences. Do you see a lot of this coming from FtM trans people? NO. Predictably this is all about entitled men trying to force themselves on women. Again.

    Even the much-touted violence against trans people is absolutely no different than the violence against women. Women are raped and murdered all the time for being women, and yet somehow that’s not as big a deal as a tiny portion of the population that experience similar abuse for wanting to be women. And women’s concerns–as women–their liberation, their safety–now need to take a back seat to this tiny portion of men who want to be women. If trans”women” want us to have any sympathy for them, they need to start approaching women (and feminism) sensitively, as an oppressed group whose identity they are appropriating (and understand women’s position and decline to make ridiculous demands of them); they need to stop threatening rape and death to women who don’t agree with them (women get that enough from other men, if they want to be “women” they’ll stop doing that); they need to stop trying to erase the history and identity of that entire oppressed group because sometimes when talking about their experiences women don’t include them; they need to stop trying to push their ideology on women, taking over the conversation, and making everything about them (including calling everyone else “cis”), this tiny, tiny portion of the (male) population.

    The fact that somehow they’ve swayed everyone to their side is only further evidence of endemic societal misogyny that advantages anyone born male over anyone born female, whether gender-conforming or not.

    • Harry Heller

      Quit being such a sniveler. Trannies are freaks, period. Feminism is absolute anti-scientific idiocy. Patriarchy is the natural basis of society – and the particular basis of Western society. Women are happiest when they have loving but also controlling husbands. Western women, especially younger ones, since the horrid 60s have proven that they can’t handle freedom.

      • hahaha gfy.

        Hatred of trans women = bringing TERFs and MRAs together for 30 years.

    • You don’t “get” a lot of things. The fear mongering and calls for collective punishment and vilification of a group of thousands of individuals, like the screed you just wrote, is the problem. Your hateful willful ignorance and attacks on a “tiny percentage of [women]” is the distraction. If you’d kindly stop focusing on being a bigot and decide to put energy into being a feminist instead, we’d all be better off.

      • flow ir in

        “The fear mongering and calls for collective punishment and vilification of a group of thousands of individuals,”

        would that be the TG villification of anyone who doesn’t agree their ‘ladyboners’ have a right to penetrate the ‘cotton ceiling’ of lesbian’s panties?

        Or is your overblown rhetoric aimed at normal folk? Because i’ve not seen anyone ask for punishment of weird trans folk. We just don’t want their boners in the ladies changing room….

        • marti386

          “would that be the TG vilification of anyone who doesn’t agree their
          ‘ladyboners’ have a right to penetrate the ‘cotton ceiling’ of lesbian’s
          panties?

          Actually, the “cotton” in “cotton ceiling” refers to trans women’s panties. Not cis women’s.

          You know, if you stopped hanging around TERF blogs all day like some self-loathing moron, you might actually LEARN a few things.

          • flow ir in

            “”would that be the TG vilification of anyone who doesn’t agree their ‘ladyboners’ have a right to penetrate the ‘cotton ceiling’ of lesbian’s panties?

            Actually, the “cotton” in “cotton ceiling” refers to trans women’s panties. Not cis women’s.

            You know, if you stopped hanging around TERF blogs all day like some self-loathing moron, you might actually LEARN a few things.”

            well, i’m very glad we’ve got that straight. that makes it all OK. /s
            now we’ve cleared up that misunderstanding, can you respond?:

            would that be the TG vilification of anyone who doesn’t agree their ‘ladyboners’ have a right to penetrate lesbians?

            • marti386

              No where during the Cotton Ceiling workshop did anyone discuss “having a right to penetrate lesbians”.

              Seriously, stop hanging out with the GenderTrender crowd.

            • flow ir in

              “No where during the Cotton Ceiling workshop did anyone discuss “having a right to penetrate lesbians”.”

              I wouldn’t know, women weren’t allowed in those workshops.

            • marti386

              “I wouldn’t know, women weren’t allowed in those workshops.”

              Then maybe you should ask yourself this: IF no cis women were allowed into the workshop, then HOW can the TERFs claim they know what was going on in there?

              Also, just to point it out, the workshop was attended by a total of seven trans women. SEVEN. So if TERFs think this is proof of some grand conspiracy, don’t you think it’s kind of a dud?

        • I’m old enough to remember when the same sort of rhetoric was common and mainstream – just used against gay men, bisexuals and lesbians.

          OMFG – A lesbian might be in the same locker room or bathroom as me! Those perverts are going to get off on hearing me pee! Gay men are sick pedophiles that require electroshock treatment to be safe and integrate back into polite society!!! Bisexuals are all over-sexed sickos who give straights AIDS.

          Same shit – different day. The TERF crew are just paying it forward instead of recognizing it for what it is: Bigotry 099.

          It’s not even 101 – with Bigotry 101 it’s all coded and subtle – at least they have the courtesy of being transparent in their hateful bullshit.

          So yes – thank you for being so damn obvious.

          • flow ir in

            oh bollox.

            what was in the news recently?

            Trans advocatre rapes and strangles
            Trans women accused of rape
            trans woman caught masturbating in changing rooms

            etc.

            Sure, not every trans woman is a monster, but lets not ignore the fact that some are.
            It used to be that trans women would try and fit in. Nowadays, more and more are flaunting their beards, penises and masculinity, protected by the liberal idea that ‘women’ can be anything they want.

            Its time we turned it around and accepted that MEN can be any kind of MAN they want without having to appropriate female spaces. And by ‘man’ i’m referring directly to genitalia.

    • marti386

      “This is absolutely ridiculous…the trans movement has become not only
      hateful toward anyone in disagreement (extension of the MRM?), but has
      somehow managed to bring everyone round to its side and way of thinking”

      Translation: Oh, isn’t a shame we can’t just mock trannies, and beat them to death in the street like in the good old days?

      “I still don’t understand how people refuse to believe the obvious, that if you tell men that if they claim to be women they can go into women’s locker rooms A LOT OF PERVERTS WILL DO THIS. They just will!”

      I see. So in other words, trans women should be punished because you cis people can’t trust yourselves in the restrooms long enough to pee.

      Yeah, no. Doesn’t work for me.

      “Also, the fact that something like five times more men than women claim they are trans (and are “lesbians,” and want to force lesbians to accept them as partners)”

      The HORROR! Trans lesbians expecting to be treated like lesbians! GROSS! Trans people’s sexuality be icky.

      “It used to be really hard to get permission for surgeries; now, because of the trans lobby, not only can anyone with a passing whim (or the wrong reasons) do it, and insurance pays for it, but it’s being pushed on gender-questioning teens and children”

      I’m sorry, do you live on an alternate planet Earth? Cuz none of that is happening on this one.

      “Do they even know how long it took for women–over one half of the population–to get their own public bathrooms?”

      Yeah, I do. Do you? It’s 127 freaking years ago. I’d say you’ve had them to your cis selves long enough, don’t you?

      “If trans women want us to have any sympathy for them, they need to start approaching women (and feminism) sensitively, as an oppressed group whose identity they are appropriating.

      I’m sorry, but that’s a too way street. Cis people as a whole have yet to express any real sympathy for trans women, and in fact have a rather long history of oppressing us. That includes cis women. So get your foot off my neck, and maybe I’ll treat you better.

      • flow ir in

        As people can probably tell, Marti386 failed in their ‘transition’ to female and is now a woman hating monstrosity…

        • marti386

          Your a real laff riot. I’m gonna tell my best friend (a cis woman) all about you.

          She ALWAYS finds it amusing to hear what a “woman hating monstrosity” I am. :P

          • flow ir in

            i’m not surprised that she hears it a lot.

            • marti386

              Oh, BELIEVE me. My cis friends are QUITE familiar with the ridiculous theatrics of you TERFs.

            • flow ir in

              Do your ‘cis friends’ mind being called cis? when i mention the new lingo to my friends, they get annoyed with the labelling….

            • marti386

              No, they don’t mind being called cis at all. Why on earth would they? After all, it’s no more an insult than trans.

            • flow ir in

              “No, they don’t mind being called cis at all. Why on earth would they? After all, it’s no more an insult than trans.”

              ?? insult? where did that notion come from.?

              women are women, men are men. No requirement for ‘cis’. Trans people are trans. No need to re-define 50% of the world’s population to suit a few males.

            • marti386

              And trans women are women. The APA and AMA agree. So if I’m a woman, than we need a term for women that are “not trans”. Hence the term cis. Because not all women are cis.

              My female cis friends have no problems being called cis, because, unlike you, they’re smart enough to know that they aren’t the only kind of women in the world.

      • calabasa

        Oh man, your reply is hilarious…the trans movement is completely out of control.

        Do you understand that female oppression is based around reproductive capacity, and that being unable to speak about it as uniquely female oppression means the end of the feminist movement–because of what, a few pregnant women who want to call themselves men? Absolutely ridiculous.

        And yes, transgenderism is being pushed by parents on the left upon their children (children who merely do anything that seems like something the opposite gender would do), and being pushed on gender-queer teens who go onto trans sites to ask questions (instead of telling them, as they should, that surgery and hormones are a big decision and not something to be taken lightly).

        I’m pretty sure you’re aware I don’t think transgender people should be beaten, killed, or mocked. That doesn’t mean your pretend “rights” supercede mine or the other 51 percent of the population who are biological women.

        The fact that you dismiss the very real and reasonable fear of men pretending to be transgender in order to harm women as not being your problem but a problem between “cis” people who can’t control themselves shows how little you care about the rights of biological women. The fact that men will do that is absolutely a reason not to allow transwomen into women’s public-yet-intimate spaces, and if you cared about women’s safety–rather than just seeing everyone else as “cis oppressors” who can all just go to hell, as you apparently do–you would understand that.

        In terms of lesbian women, you know that transwomen are actually women, right? I mean biologically speaking, they are not. I am sure transwomen face much less discrimination for this fact among lesbians than transmen do among gay men, as women tend to be more open sexually than men. But if there are lesbian women who don’t want to have sex with a person not born female, particularly if they still have their male equipment, that is their right. I do feel sorry for transgender people in terms of sex post-op, however, as it seems it would be difficult to achieve orgasm (though I hear it’s possible); pre-op, they might be better off with bisexual people than someone oriented toward either gender exclusively. Someone bisexual might be more understanding about a pre-op transgender person’s situation. Trying to push themselves on people (to guilt lesbians for not wanting to sleep with them, for example) is not only what men always do to women but absolutely not acceptable. Not believing one can truly change sex/not feeling attracted to someone because they are not of the biological sex you are attracted to is perfectly all right; these are opinions and/or natural feelings, not bigotry. You can’t push yourself sexually on someone (why aren’t straight transwomen complaining when men don’t want to have sex with them, which I am sure happens frequently? I mean, is there some term for it like the “cotton ceiling” for lesbian women? Again, this is yet more sexism aimed at women) any more than you can push your ideology on someone (if someone thinks you can’t change sex, it’s their opinion, and that opinion is not in and of itself oppressing you; I understand that it’s painful as you want to be accepted, and many such people may accept your gender identity and treat you as you want to be treated but still refuse to say you have actually changed sex; you can’t control people’s perceptions, painful as that may be). Some trans people are doing both–pushing ideologies and trying to push sex on people who don’t accept those ideologies.

        The fact that you insist on pushing the term “cis” and also using it as a pejorative shows your mentality. I am all for including transgender people in public life and making sure they are safe, protected and not discriminated against; however, the trans movement has become a hate movement, one uniquely focused on bashing feminism for challenging the notion of gender even though it’s not feminists but reactionary conservative types who are transgender people’s real aggressors. And you don’t get to label everyone else in the world around your identity. Other people in minority categories don’t do that; people with mental illnesses don’t go around calling everyone else “neurotypical” and also demanding they do the same, even though they make up a much larger percentage of the population and face even worse discrimination (even worse because there is little to no civil rights movement for the mentally ill, unlike for transgender people).

        But by all means, stay in your little bubble.

        • marti386

          “Do you understand that female oppression is based around reproductive capacity”

          No, actually. It’s based on society assuming you have reproductive capacity, since it never really sees proof of such. As a trans woman, I’ve faced plenty of that “female oppression” without having the ability to reproduce. Which you might have realized, if you’d bother to actually talk to trans women.

          “And yes, transgenderism is being pushed by parents on the left upon their children”

          No it actually isn’t. Just because more trans children and parents know about transgenderism, and are getting the help needed, that isn’t any kind of proof that it’s being “pushed” on anyone. The fact is, we exist.

          “That doesn’t mean your pretend “rights” supercede mine or the other 51 percent of the population who are biological women”

          Cool. So when you can provide proof that my “pretend rights” in ANY way supercede the rights of cis women, then we can have that discussion. But since you can’t, drop it.

          “The fact that you dismiss the very real and reasonable fear of men pretending to be transgender in order to harm women as not being your problem but a problem between “cis” people who can’t control themselves shows how little you care about the rights of biological women”.

          Fear is not a reason to deny trans people our rights. There’s plenty of data that shows trans-inclusive rights to not endanger cis women at all. Like here:

          http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

          http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/10/15/texas-experts-debunk-the-transgender-bathroom-p/206178

          But despite the fact that data from Austin, Dallas and El Paso, that didn’t stop ignorant cis people like yourself from just voting down HERO, did it? Which brings up your other point. Namely, why is it that cis women feel so little concern for MY rights, but expect me to give a crap about you?

          “But if there are lesbian women who don’t want to have sex with a person not born female, particularly if they still have their male equipment, that is their right.”

          The word you’re looking for is cis, not “born female”, since trans women are born female as much as you. Get your terminology straight. And when you can provide a list of cis lesbians who’ve been forced into sex with trans women, you can speak up on it. Until then, STFU.

          “Not believing one can truly change sex/not feeling attracted to someone because they are not of the biological sex you are attracted to is perfectly all right”

          Sure it’s their right, but that doesn’t MAKE it right, if you catch my drift. I mean, you can say that not being attracted to women of color is a “right”, but that wouldn’t make you any less of a racist assclown, would it? Same applies to trans women.

          All in all, I suggest you grow up, and stop acting like a little baby because trans people asked you to step out of your little bubble of cis privilege long enough to consider the rights and feeling of someone other than yourself. But it appears you can’t do that, can you?

    • flow ir in

      not everyone.

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  • Kitzzeh

    I’m happy they did that because it clearly shows what kind of people they are and they are digging their own hole. They wanted a debate yet banned the ones they should have debated with… irony much? If you’re indeed transparent and have nothing to hide then why ban people, criticism and different opinions? SHADY!

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  • marti386

    Since there seems to be a major misunderstanding about what the term “free speech” really means, let me explain it to some of the commenters here. Because sadly, it needs to be.

    The actual, legal definition of “free speech” is:

    The right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, to express beliefs and ideas without unwarranted government restriction.

    The operating words here are “without unwarranted GOVERNMENT restriction”.

    See, the “free speech” Amendment only stops the government from censoring you.

    That’s ALL.

    It doesn’t stop your comments from being blocked on Twitter. It doesn’t stop you from being banned on Facebook.

    It doesn’t stop your comments from being blocked on forums like this one.

    It doesn’t stop news sources from refusing to publish your articles.

    It doesn’t stop publishers from refusing to publish your book.

    It also doesn’t stop you from being barred from speaking at events like the one that the University is hosting.

    And while I admit that banning someone from a “free speech” debate seems a tad ironic, it’s not in any way a violation of Julie’s free speech.

    So RELAX. This isn’t the end of free society as we know it. Arresting you for “thought crimes” still isn’t legal.

    But that doesn’t mean we have to give public platforms to dirtbags like Julie Bindel, either.

  • flow ir in

    I don’t agree with everything Julie Bindel says, but nothing that she has said should lead to her voice being gagged. We are intelligent enough to form our own opinions, and i prefer fallacious radical feminism to the endless hate speech of the TG community.

  • It wasn’t about safety. Anyone who thinks that is self-deluded. Anyone who says it is a liar. It’s a bunch of whiny, worthless milquetoasts afraid of opposing views. No one was in any danger. Get out the bubble wrap and cover everything. Obviously UM students are fragile, little porcelain dolls who should be handled with extreme care and kept in the harmony hut from the Addams Family movie. Life is about joy and happiness and there can’t be any conflict. Disneyfy everything, the reality of life is too harsh for UM students.

    Pathetic losers.

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  • Thomson

    Bear in mind that Bindel used to be a Social Justice Movement privileged member, gold card, until she failed to agree with all the dogma. She has previously called for men to be put into “some kind of camp” to create a safe space for women.

    It’s almost beyond irony. A leading feminist is no-platformed from a debate titled “Does modern feminism have a problem with free speech?”. She is no-platformed because her views “incite hatred” against trans people. She responds by claiming the decision to ban her was hate-based as it came from “pure misogyny”. It’s beyond belief.