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liam-kelly
9th October 2014

Interview: Mike Catt

England’s 2003 World Cup winning legend, and current attacking coach, Mike Catt spoke to The Mancunion’s Liam Kelly.
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TLDR

Mike Catt OBE is a bona fide legend of English rugby. Highlights of his glittering career include winning the 2003 World Cup, reaching another final in 2007 (and, at 36, becoming the oldest ever player to do so), triumph in the 1998 Heineken Cup, and clinching three Premiership titles with Bath. In the process, Catt earned 75 caps for England, a cap for the British and Irish Lions and 220 appearances for Bath, scoring 64 tries in the process.

Following his playing career he became a coach at London Irish, helping them to the Premiership final in May 2009. He went on to have a successful stint as England Backs Coach during the 2012 tour of South Africa, and is currently the attacking skills coach for England’s elite players.

With the Rugby World Cup being held in England in 2015, both hopes and expectations are high that England can win the Webb Ellis Cup for the first time since that famous day in 2003, and Catt’s attacking coaching will be key to England’s chances. Asking for an evaluation of English hopes—with a young team going into this World Cup—seemed like the best place to start.

“I think we’ve been ticking along quite nicely, we’ve had some real tough tours over the last couple of years. The players have had to learn, and learn very quickly, against the top sides in the world. New Zealand, South Africa.

“New Zealand are number one in the world for a reason, they are the best in the world, but we got a hell of a lot out of the tour. We really found out about certain individuals, despite the result. Losing three on the trot is not ideal to be honest, and one result would have been ideal. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case, but it was a massive learning curve for a lot of the youngsters who haven’t been put in those environments before. It’s another huge experience for our guys, and it will stand them in good stead for the World Cup.”

Inevitably, comparisons will be made between this England team and the triumphant team in 2003, but, Catt is cautious about doing so: “I think it’s very hard to compare the two sides; what people forget is that we were together for six years. It wasn’t a case of being put together and going off to win it. We lost three Grand Slam opportunities, and in the 1999 World Cup we only got to the quarter finals. We learned from all those failures—I call them ‘lessons’—and it stood us in good stead. Everyone was fit going into that World Cup, so we were very fortunate. Of course, we won a Grand Slam in 2003, and we had beaten Australia and New Zealand in Australia and New Zealand prior to that World Cup, which, I think, gave us a psychological edge.”

In 2003, England had some of their best-ever players coming into their prime, including: captain Martin Johnson, Lewis Moody, Lawrence Dallaglio, Jason Robinson, Jonny Wilkinson, Will Greenwood, Matt Dawson, and Catt himself. This generation of internationals have not generated the same amount of excitement, though they have not been together nearly as long.

Comparisons are also bound to be drawn between the coaching methods of incumbent Stuart Lancaster, and 2003 coach Sir Clive Woodward. Catt, of course presently working under Lancaster, said: “Stuart Lancaster has got the team to a place which is phenomenal, and probably would have taken Clive Woodward three or four years to get to.”

A contentious RFU regulation means that English players playing abroad are ineligible for selection for the national side, a regulation that has come under fire recently, as a result of the performances of Steffon Armitage at Toulon, who has recently been named European Rugby Player of the Year. However, Catt stands by the RFU’s stance on the matter.

“Every player that goes to France knows the rules. Stuart Lancaster sat down with Steffon, Delon [Armitage], [Andrew] Sheridan and Jonny that this would affect their chances of playing for England. They then made the decision to go; you’ve got to remember why they decided to go to France in the first place [money].

“If somebody is that desperate to play for England, they’ll either stay in England or come back to England. It is what it is, we back the RFU’s decision because we don’t want people leaving and we want a strong domestic league.”

Availability is also an issue when players move abroad: “If you have players that play in France, we won’t have the players, the players won’t be able to come to the camps, and they’ll have less preparation as a result.

“My theory is that if anybody wants to play for England, come back and play in England. We don’t want a massive outpouring of English talent doesn’t help us, it doesn’t help the Premiership and it doesn’t help the clubs.

“I’ve worked with Steffon at London Irish and he’s an exceptionally talented rugby player, but is he better than Chris Robshaw? People will argue, but is he going to do things against the likes of Richie McCaw and Michael Hooper? There’s no guarantee that he would play for England either. There’s nothing wrong with saying that if Toulon released him prior to the World Cup, and gave us three months with him at the World Cup camp, then who knows?”

However, the chances of Toulon releasing their best and highest paid player is unlikely at best.

A home World Cup has the chance of providing a real boost to England’s players, but it could the pressure of expectation hinder their chances?

“Pressure’s for tyres mate.” [Laughs] “No, I think there are different things that can heap pressure on people. At a home World Cup you have your family nearby and there will be other things that you have to worry about other than the rugby; it’s really different from a World Cup on the other side of the world where you can focus totally on winning the World Cup. I think where we’ll be as a squad and a group, Stuart has left no stone unturned with the detail in everything we do. He’s been brilliant, got the right people on board that have been in these big situations before. Matt Parker, who is head of performance, was part of the Olympic cycling setup. All the little things, the little details, that can go wrong in an environment have all been covered, so we’d like to think that it won’t put any more pressure on the players.

“The beauty about England rugby at the moment is that it’s reconnected with the nation. After 2011, after that fiasco, Stuart has done an incredible job with the press, and the players have performed admirably.

“England have done well, and we’ve still got a long way to go. I don’t think the pressure is on there. We’re going to be playing at Twickenham, we’re comfortable and we know what we’re doing.”

Nobody would want to draw England at Twickenham at a World Cup, with 70,000 home fans roaring the team on.

“I think one of the big things is that Stuart has been involved with the union for a long time; he spent five years heading up the academy system, so he has pretty much known all the players that he’s picking for England since they were 15 or 16. He totally understands each player and how they operate, so he has got these relationships with them, which is so key.

“The biggest problem with 2003 was that there was no succession plan. After the World Cup, that was it, and there was nothing in place for the game to actually grow again, whereas Stuart has had a massive involvement in making sure England are continually successful in 2016, 2017, 2018 and through to the next World Cup in 2019. The minor stuff he’s done at the union, that people won’t be able to see, and what he’s changed has been pretty remarkable. He’s a brilliant guy to work for, to be honest.”

A concern that has been aired about this England side is that there are not enough characters to support the younger players in this England, but this is something that does not concern Catt.

“Well, they’re all young, but you want them to be young. They’re playing for England, it means a hell of a lot to them and they need to put their bodies on the line, which all the guys do. It’s a physical game, it’s a brutal game at international level, and you saw that with Sam Burgess in the NRL Final.”

Burgess, who has just switched codes and signed for Bath, broke his cheekbone in the first couple of minutes of the NRL Final last week, but continued playing and was named man-of-the-match. “You want warriors like him, guys that will do it; and we’ve got a fair few. But in the same breath, you want guys who are adept at making the right decision at the right time and that are able to win it. It’s not just about the physicality, but it does help.” [Laughs]

Lewis Moody has been described as the ‘mad dog’ of the 2003 England side, a player who hassled the opposition sides with an unmatched intensity. Does this English side need ‘a Moody’? “I think we do that with our energy and defensive line speed. I think a lot of teams will play against us without having encountered that sort of defensive line speed that we put on them. We continually put them under pressure.

“You need guys who are going to make the right decisions at the right time. Richie McCaw is the best at it, and he’s been around for a long time. His decision making is second to none. He doesn’t dive into every breakdown, he waits and waits and waits, and then he goes. That comes with experience. There’s no need to have somebody like Moody. What a bloody headcase he was.” [Laughs]

Clive Woodward has said that, in order to win the World Cup, each player in the XV needs to be in the ‘top three’ players who play that position in the world. Catt, however, disagrees with his former coach, “I think what’s more important is how the team gels. It’s how you work as a team now instead of the individuals.

“At international level I do think that you need someone who has that X-factor, like a Jason Robinson, who could create something out of nothing, and that is something that England need; to find these guys who are able to do that. New Zealand have Savea, Aaron Smith, these guys who are phenomenal athletes. These guys do something and it just comes off, and we need a little bit more of that. But I think we’re in a really good place at the moment. Top three in each position? It’s hard to evaluate. You want to be the fittest team, and that’s the hard work. You have the players for three months before the World Cup, and that’s when you thrash them.”

During Catt’s best years at international level, he formed a formidable partnership in the centre of the park with Jonny Wilkinson. So what was it like playing with arguably the most famous England player of his generation?

“Jonny was very good at sticking to a game plan. Clive would give the team a game plan and Jonny would implement it to the nth degree. I think the people around him were a few mavericks, and we would change the game accordingly and play to our strengths. Jonny was exceptionally strong defensively, and he kicked his goals, which is what Owen Farrell is.”

Arguably the most contested position on the pitch amongst the current crop of England players is Farrell’s fly half, a vital position that dictates how the team plays, both offensively and defensively. Catt knows what he wants in a fly half, a position that he was no stranger to in his career.

“If you look back at previous World Cups, the team that had the best defence and best goal-kicking record were the ones that won. It’s not the number of points you score along the way, it’s the best defence and that’s what you have to look at, especially in those competitions. It’s not about the flair, you know, Clive Woodward will go on about flair: ‘You need to pick Cipriani, this guy, this guy, this guy’. Believe me, winning in 2003 was very much a direct route, with Jonny kicking goals and drop goals.

“The competition is good. George Ford has played exceptionally well at Bath at the moment, Cip’s doing alright at Sale, and Stephen Meyler has statistics of 80-85% goal kicking, and you need to trust the players you’ve got out on the pitch to get you points. Not many teams get you tries anymore.” [Laughs] “It’s character over talent, in our eyes.”

During the 1995 Rugby World Cup, in one of his first appearances for England, Catt was famously poleaxed by New Zealand’s Jonah Lomu as he ran in to score one of his four tries in the semi-final. So, what was going through his head when that famous incident happened?

“Well, my arse I think.” [Laughs] “He was a freak of nature at the time. When you look at guys like George North and Savea now, they’re all the same size. It was brilliant, because everyone knew who Mike Catt was at the end of that tournament, for all the wrong reasons.” [Laughs again]

I close the interview by asking what the greatest achievement of Catt’s illustrious career was. Was it the World Cup win? The Heineken Cup victory? Grand Slams? In fact, it was none of them.

“I think it’s the longevity of my career. For me to finish at the age of 39 was brilliant, and I think that because I love the game so much it meant that I had the ability to bounce back from all the failures that I went through – or lessons I learnt, whichever way you want to put it. From being booed at Twickenham by 70,000 fans to being dropped by England 16 times; that resilience really taught me a lot about myself and how you get up and do things, and carry on doing it if you’re passionate about it. That sort of stuff means a lot more to me than the trophies.

“Trophies are brilliant at the end of a journey, but it’s the actual journey that’s the best part.”


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